Astron Argon

The Defender of Eales


Or
How Not to Debate

(if you don't want to look like an idiot)

by
Paul Joseph Rovelli

 

 

I was in a rather mischievous mood one day last year. And I wrote this commentary to a document by Ray Eales describing the supposed relationship between a Master of the A.'.A.'. and his or her Disciple. To further my mood, I mailed it out to some former friends whom decided that they were no longer my friend for one sole reason…I left the cult that they still belong to. Of course, I learned that they weren't really friends to begin with (if I have to be in HOOR or their lineage of the A.'.A.'. to qualify for this now dubious distinction…it's definitely not wholesome). And from there…David Stein (at the time, Master of A/OM Lodge)…decided to reply. Naturally, I saved his emails and our conversation. I present it here, transcribed to show what could really go wrong when one buys the argument that a Master should have complete control over the development of a Disciple. Giving up one's autonomy over one's own Initiation is just plain idiotic. Look and see!

Please also note that at one time and for a number of years, David Stein was a close and trusted friend of mine. Really, I miss his friendship and those others that were a part of an organization here in New Jersey that worked very hard and was marvelously productive. We had a lot of very good times together and we held the utmost respect for each other. I remember David from back in the Caliphate days when he would call me almost every night; asking me questions about Crowley and about Magick. We left the Caliphate at the same time as he recognized the unjust position they took in the handling of another unrelated matter. Only this time, things for some reason were decidedly different. But that's a whole other story.

I'm writing this approximately seven months after the initial conversation took place. The conversation took place in August of 2000ev. Any comments in bold type are being written in April of 2001ev and are for the purposes of elucidating an important argument: Debate is about finding the truth and not about winning. Being able to hold a range of facts in one's head and accurately respond to them is of the utmost importance. Too many people especially in Thelema today, don't really have a good understanding of this. And I hope that the reader finds this edifying on this level as well.

Our conversation begins with Mr. Stein's email to me. And I believe that Mr. Eales was feeding him lines as some of his words definitely don't sound like they came from him. I knew David well enough, his intellectual capacities and his speech patterns as well as a lot of the things about Thelema that were particularly absorbed by his intellect. And some of what's being said is in my opinion, definitely not his.

CF;
93

It seems you're missing the point with Ray's article.
The trappings of the "Hierarchy" are intended to enslave the Aspirant to the degree where one must 'sink or swim'.

Obviously, H.O.O.R. is the Organ of the A.'.A.'., specifically 939.'.'s branch of the A.'.A.'.

And why is this formed? What purpose does this serve? Of course, it's purpose is to serve 939.'.'s will.

I have found in dealing with Ray that if you have an attitude that is 'cult-worship-like' with him, he will most certainly encourage you to worship him and what he believes/mandates/whatever. You said it once yourself… "He'll give you enough rope to hang yourself."

You do the same thing Paul. I've worked with you for a number of years. I've seen your dictator like ways and manipulative personality. It has served me well in hardening my shell and making me stronger for combat with my own Self and others.

If anything, the warrior requires some type of battle experience to be better equipped for the war.

Many 'warriors in training' get killed in boot camp though…
The truth is, you're both leaders of the masses. They will follow you because your voices are heard well by your educated minds and life-experiences.
The same is true for Marc, Josh, Dominick and others.

With such apparently ego minded people, one is compelled to follow them for a time. This happens until one reaches the point of rising up and claiming their own right and place, if in fact it ever happens.

If they fail, then they will fall to the point of complacency and the continuance of such hero-worship, to the betterment of the Order and the M.T. (ie. the slaves shall serve…)

Crowley was a classic example of someone using this technique to either 'shock' the Aspirant into thinking for him/herself if they were capable of such feats (so uncommon in humans…the few and the secret…), or if not, to continue to feed the slave-like tendencies of the individual thereby forever entrapping them.

The 'double-speak' you point out so often in Ray's essay attempts to show this, but you do not see it.

Perhaps this is because you have already gone through this process.
You have already become the 'Mentor'.. the 'Instructor'…
Whether you like it or not, you have. Those who are around you or near you often latch onto your teacher-like personality. I did myself for a long time.
It was this enslavement that forced me to look into myself. I was no longer complacent, but had a friend… an ally in my battle with myself. That ally didn't help me by giving me a pat on the back and saying 'good job Dave!' No… Instead he fought me every step of the way…assuming *HIS* ideas were the correct ones. You sought to manipulate me and get me to worship you and your ideals so that I could better understand my 'Self' (as you believed my 'Self' to be.)

Obviously I've disappointed you, but that's the way it goes I guess.
Did you notice that we're standing in a room full of mirrors?

93 93/93

Fraternally,
1/3
DMS

Then I sent this reply:

cf
93

You:
It seems you're missing the point with Ray's article.

Me:
I don't think so…you see…I refused to be enslaved and I refuse to accept some idea of being a failure BECAUSE I left the herd of cattle known as HOOR (a company of slaves).

You:
The trappings of the "Hierarchy" are intended to enslave the Aspirant to the degree where one must 'sink or swim'.

Me:
And you would accept this slavery for the sake of your higher Aspiration?! That's all but laughable.

You:
Obviously, H.O.O.R. is the Organ of the A.'.A.'., specifically 939.'.'s branch of the A.'.A.'.

Me:
I don't believe that anyone who pushes forth policies of enslavement for whatever reason could make anything an Organ of the A.'.A.'. if one considers the goals of the A.'.A.'. Life, Light, Love & LIBERTY (opposite of enslavement).

You:
And why is this formed? What purpose does this serve? Of course, it's purpose is to serve 939.'.'s will.

Me:
YES! Not yours nor anyone else's…just his…el Presidente…the CONSOLER.

You:
I have found in dealing with Ray that if you have an attitude that is 'cult-worship-like' with him, he will most certainly encourage you to worship him and what he believes/mandates/whatever. You said it once yourself… "He'll give you enough rope to hang yourself."

Me:
But of course! And he has a lot of them gathered around him to support and exalt him. Instead of teaching them to find their own freedom, he allows them to continue in their unabashed folly…for his own ends…self-serving and aggrandizing of course…just like a good cult leader. It doesn't matter that you quote me out of context to support your point. You didn't need that abuse of my words to help you. You have already been quite clear.

You:
You do the same thing Paul. I've worked with you for a number of years. I've seen your dictator like ways and manipulative personality. It has served me well in hardening my shell and making me stronger for combat with my own Self and others.

This is ad hominem…very immature…and ruins any chance at a substantive debate. But I do try to get around it.

Me:
Nice try at a rationalization. You would even try to put me on the defensive here…not biting today…try again tomorrow.

You:
If anything, the warrior requires some type of battle experience to be better equipped for the war.

Me:
The enemy is within oneself…the Master need not add to this with further attacks from outside. That is only a distraction to take time and energy away from working on oneself.

You:
Many 'warriors in training' get killed in boot camp though…

Me:
Yes…in the boot camp of the Consoler who claims the right to judge the living and the dead…(Christist).

You:
The truth is, you are both leaders of the masses. They will follow you because your voices are heard well by your educated minds and life-experiences.

Me:
Thanks for you kind words…but I don't seek any glory by way of 'the masses'…nor am I their shepherd…(Christist).

You:
The same is true for Marc, Josh, Dominick and others.

Me:
They are Cattle amongst the herd…thus spoke Zarathustra! LOL

This was a bit of an inside joke as Marc's motto is Zarathustra.

You:
With such apparently ego minded people, one is compelled to follow them for a time. This happens until one reaches the point of rising up and claiming their own right and place, if in fact it ever happens.

Me:
Both me & Ray with egos?! I thought Ray had destroyed his ego…so did Lynn Cerrito when she made her bold announcement of the same accomplishment. That should leave only me with any sense of self-identity (ego)…ROFL!

Lynn Cerrito is a close confidante and student of Ray's. She used to run his HOOR Lodge in Tampa.

You:
If they fail, then they will fall to the point of complacency and the continuance of such hero-worship, to the betterment of the Order and the M.T. (ie. the slaves shall serve…)

Me:
Yes, more dues paying idle-minded masses to gather into the fold…go Jesus! And you just keep converting them to this imbecilic state with such teachings as In the Continuum.

Article posted in the files section of this list.

You:
Crowley was a classic example of someone using this technique to either 'shock' the Aspirant into thinking for him/herself if they were capable of such feats (so uncommon in humans…the few and the secret…), or if not, to continue to feed the slave-like tendencies of the individual thereby forever entrapping them.

Me:
Now that's laughably un-supported…show documentation. This is some sort of fairy tale you're weaving here. I understand your attempt at a 'Trickster' motif…but you're on rationally shaky ground in this case. But of course…In the Continuum teaches us that to be rational is to fail the ordeal of your advancement…so you don't need to be rational…silly me.

You:
The 'double-speak' you point out so often in Ray's essay attempts to show this, but you do not see it.

This is of course, accusatory and serves no purpose in a debate. It only serves the debator when there's no real substance in the argument that he can come up with. The idea is to divert the attention into a tangent argument…and it takes a way from any chance to learn.

Me:
Now that's your silliest rationalization.

You:
Perhaps this is because you have already gone through this process.

You have already become the 'Mentor'.. the 'Instructor'…

Whether you like it or not, you have. Those who are around you or near you often latch onto your teacher-like personality. I did myself for a long time.

Me:
If it was true that this was even recognized, the Master would be celebrating my 'graduation' and 'passing of the test'…rather than running around telling people in his flock that I'm insane and a failed Neophyte. You unfortunately have deluded yourself nicely with these most irrational rationalizations. But thanks for the kind words towards me.

I kind of indulged him here a bit…but we did get the conversation back on track…sort of. Still, he's indirectly using ad hominem…and yet, describing not only how he sees things…but indirectly defending Ray's position. But what's more interesting here is that he's not arguing objectively, but arguing totally from a subjective viewpoint…and not even aware of it. Emotionalism is not only defeating in a debate…but it crosses two planes…one should not think with the emotions and feel with the intellect.

You:
It was this enslavement that forced me to look into myself. I was no longer complacent, but had a friend… an ally in my battle with myself. That ally didn't help me by giving me a pat on the back and saying 'good job Dave!' No… Instead he fought me every step of the way…assuming *HIS* ideas were the correct ones. You sought to manipulate me and get me to worship you and your ideals so that I could better understand my 'Self' (as you believed my 'Self' to be.)

Me:
So now you reveal some of your paranoias…I never sought to enslave you…that is only your perception…and obviously one that you enjoyed…something you're still enjoying…with the CONSOLER.

And this is a strong point…he's using the Master to fortify his egoic situation…really proving to the objective reader that the Master can't help you in this regard…despite Ray's claims.

You:
Obviously I've disappointed you, but that's the way it goes I guess.

This is a real distraction…and a bit of a play on passive aggressive behavior. I do try to get around it and back to the discussion. But he's more and more bringing the focus to himself and betraying his own psyche than defending Ray, which was his original intent.

Me:
No…you didn't disappoint me…I stopped being the CONSOLER you wanted…so you took on another task master (from your point of view). Actually, you realized that I wasn't consoling you at all…and you ran like hell to Daddy.

You:
Did you notice that we're standing in a room full of mirrors?

Me:
But of course! That's all the fun of this…thanks for playing the game…and so well!!!

Now this was truly great…I was reflecting these messages to a few interested parties…and David was sending them to Ray. You'll see later how having the same thing done to him proved to be upsetting for him. And he really seemed to believe that somehow I was going to cower when I learned that Ray was reading this.

Fraternally,
93/93
pj

Now the conversation develops. We move into the second level of exchange.

cf
93

>> Me:
>> I don't think so…you see…I refused to be enslaved and I
>> refuse to accept
>> some idea of being a failure BECAUSE I left the herd of cattle
>> known as HOOR
>> (a company of slaves).

Me to David:

Interesting that you have no response for this.

And I am not only goading him…but claiming my point.

>> You:
>> The trappings of the "Hierarchy" are intended to enslave
>> the Aspirant to the degree where one must 'sink or swim'.

>> Me:
>> And you would accept this slavery for the sake of your higher
>> Aspiration?!
>> That's all but laughable.

Your response:
Your interpretation of this concept of slavery and mine are obviously different. In fact, I think they always have been.

My counterpoint:
Yes…I use the dictionary…and we wouldn't want anyone in HOOR to be that rational now would we…it would prove they have an ego…and that would bring humiliation in front of all the other members of this cult. After all…Ray's the only one allowed to have one of those.

You continued response:
Just because the teacher puts you through ordeals does not mean that the teacher is seeking to destroy you. In reality, you are putting yourself through the ordeals, the teacher is only acting as a catalyst. You are missing this key point.

Now we have sheer logical fallacy developing. It's ok to seek the use of terminology for the sake of understanding as in identifying a different definition of slavery. If on the one hand the "teacher puts your through ordeals", it can't follow that "the teacher is only acting as a catalyst". The importance in logical argumentation is the most important factor in any debate. Without this, there is no chance at producing a rational argument. And the whole debate degenerates into a maelstrom of sophistry.

My continued counterpoint:
I'm not missing the key point…the teacher doesn't want to destroy you…just humiliate and badger you till you get with the program and start selling flowers in airports…in other words…doing his will and not their own.

>> Me:
>> I don't believe that anyone who pushes forth policies of enslavement for
>> whatever reason could make anything an Organ of the A.'.A.'. if one
>> considers the goals of the A.'.A.'. Life, Light, Love & LIBERTY
>> (opposite of enslavement).

Your response:
You are missing my point entirely and claiming something I never said.

My counterpoint:
I quote you: "The trappings of the "Hierarchy" [with Ray as grand puba] are intended to enslave the Aspirant to the degree where one must 'sink or swim'."

Your continued response:
I never claimed H.O.O.R. or the A.'.A.'. pushed forth policies of enslavement. I'm not a representative of either of those entities.

This disclaimer is a weak-kneed attempt to excuse a faulty argument. David has already claimed to be Ray's student and by defending Ray…he's acting as a representative of the A.'.A.'.. And of course Ray is also Overseer of HOOR of which David is not only an Initiate…but their webmaster for their official site as well. All in all, this is but a diversionary tactic that destroys any chance at actually addressing the issue at hand and forming reasonable arguments for the sake of arriving at the truth. David needs to win…and where he finds himself losing, he resorts to sophistry and like tactics.

My repeated counterpoint:
You never claimed HOOR or the AA pushed forth policies of enslavement?! I again quote you: "The trappings of the "Hierarchy" are intended to enslave the Aspirant to the degree where one must 'sink or swim'." No…you couldn't possibly be an 'official' representative of HOOR…you're only their Webmaster. Don't represent them…just keep speaking for them as a member…that's good enough for these glass walls.

Your continued response:
What I meant is that by default, if the Student should fail to get past hero-worship of the teacher, they will fail miserably and become enslaved.

My counterpoint:
How about…the master should immediately point out the absurdity of hero worship and discourage it at every turn so that the Student may begin to focus on him or herself? Nah…that wouldn't do at all…who'd worship the master then? Drop kick me Jesus…through the field goals of life.

>> You:
>> And why is this formed? What purpose does this serve?
>> Of course, it's purpose is to serve 939.'.'s will.

>> Me:
>> YES! Not yours nor anyone else's…just his…el
>> Presidente…the CONSOLER.

Your response:
Well? Isn't there a lot more to consider? Consider how you for so long sought to have a 'Thelemic community'. Who's purpose did it serve? Don't tell me it was some noble Thelemic cause of yours to save the world from the evils of christism, because I won't believe it.

Again, a diversionary tactic…and indirectly ad hominem.

My counterpoint:
I am not out to save the world…that's just you living in this paradigm that requires a consoler (Christist conditioning at work here). BTW: I'm using Motta's definition of a 'Consoler'…one who says that "Only through me can you get to the Father"…wouldn't want you running to a dictionary now…that would just ruin your initiation now…wouldn't it? I remember when the Catholic Church used to warn me that I was getting too well educated and was in danger of losing my faith…ROFL.

I still would like to be a part of a Thelemic community…one that promotes Life, Love, Liberty & Light. What healthy Thelemite wouldn't prefer that to a Christist community?

But you do reveal yourself well here…you couldn't for a moment think that I might be philanthropic enough to want to share any bounty obtained from my hard work with other people…if but for the love of those in my life. This is telling of your own social alienation.

>> You:
>> I have found in dealing with Ray that if you have an attitude
>> that is 'cult-worship-like' with him, he will most certainly
>> encourage you to worship him and what he believes/mandates/whatever.
>> You said it once yourself… "He'll give you enough rope
>> to hang yourself."

>> Me:
>> But of course! And he has a lot of them gathered around him to
>> support and
>> exalt him. Instead of teaching them to find their own freedom, he allows
>> them to continue in their unabashed folly…for his own
>> ends…self-serving

Your response:
That's your opinion. My opinion is that while there have been those who have fallen into this trap, there are several who haven't.

My counterpoint:
I know at least one that he calls a liar, insane and a failure. Could he yet be teaching me…trying to get me to fall into another trap? How much does he love me anyway?…'Enquiring minds want to know'.

Your continued response:
And I submit to you that this trap will happen in every social organization you, or Ray, or anyone else conjures up. It is the nature of human personality.

One of the most important things in a debate is that when one offers up something as a fact, they support that fact. This can be supported by one's credentials or by citing the works of experts in a specific discipline. But here, David makes an assertion about "the nature of human personality" and expands upon it as a dynamic inherent in organizational structures (a logical leap as well). And he never gets around to addressing the issue at hand. So we again, also have a diversionary tactic.

My counterpoint:
Now you're an expert on human nature and the nature of everyone's personality traits. And its all so neat for you in this sardonic generalization. Well…I'll leave you to your folly on that one.

me:
>> and aggrandizing of course…just like a good cult leader. It doesn't
>> matter that you quote me out of context to support your point.
>> You didn't
>> need that abuse of my words to help you. You have already been
>> quite clear.

Your response:
I didn't abuse your words.
Obviously I haven't been clear because you do not understand what I meant.

My counterpoint:
You spoke as clearly as you think…not so well at all…you must be an Adept in this lineage…one that hates rationality.

>> You:
>> You do the same thing Paul. I've worked with you for a
>> number of years. I've seen your dictator like ways and
>> manipulative personality. It has served me well in hardening
>> my shell and making me stronger for combat with my own Self and
>> others.

>> Me:
>> Nice try at a rationalization. You would even try to put me on the
>> defensive here…not biting today…try again tomorrow.

My counterpoint:
Interesting that there's no response to this.

>> You:
>> If anything, the warrior requires some type of battle experience
>> to be better equipped for the war.

>> Me:
>> The enemy is within oneself…the Master need not add to this
>> with further
>> attacks from outside.

Your response:
Bullshit. Plain and simple. You are warned from the onset that you will be tested by your Instructor. That the A.'.A.'. will test you in many ways, many of which you won't know of beforehand.

My counterpoint:
Then the master would bring out those energies within the Aspirant that the Aspirant is struggling with. This would sharpen his or her Sword and hone his or her skills. He need not make up pranks and pretenses that have the amazing coincidence of also aggrandizing the alleged master who has now neatly positioned himself to profit off of the ignorance of the Student. "Keep 'em stupid…barefoot…and pregnant."…eh?

Your continued response:
If I'm going to train you to be my knight in my army, I'm not going to put you on a bed of pillows and stroke your dick until you're happy and satisfied.
I'm going to run at you with a sword like the enemy does and try to teach you how to react to it.

My counterpoint:
Oh…I get it now! HOOR isn't a spiritual order…it's a paramilitary group. Going to fight the commies? Let's kill one for Uncle Ray! Everybody's making money for el Presidente!

Me:
>>That is only a distraction to take time and energy
>> away from working on oneself.

Your response:
Sounds like psychic masturbation to me.

My counterpoint:
It would…why work on yourself…when you can have a Student to drive a sword through. Very telling…mmmmm!

>> You:
>> Many 'warriors in training' get killed in boot camp though…

>> Me:
>> Yes…in the boot camp of the Consoler who claims the right to judge the
>> living and the dead…(Christist).

My counterpoint:
Interesting again…no response here.

>> You:
>> The truth is, you are both leaders of the masses. They will
>> follow you because your voices are heard well by your
>> educated minds and life-experiences.

>> Me:
>> Thanks for you kind words…but I don't seek any glory by way of 'the
>> masses'…nor am I their shepherd…(Christist).

Your response:
Ah thats a good one Paul and makes me laugh. You love the attention Paul. I know you do. You enjoy public attention more than anyone I've ever met. The joy in your face when giving a lecture is astounding.

My counterpoint:
I may love attention…or I may not…but that's a lot different from seeking followers. Now, now David…can't we do better than this little subterfuge? I told you…I'm not biting today…try again tomorrow.

Your continued response:
Really, I should know Paul. Remember who you are speaking to.

Now the ad hominem is being put out directly by David. He's of course, using it to contradict my statement. But contradiction is not a debate…it's contradiction. Contradiction backed up with supportive fact is a debate. But here, the supportive fact is subjective ad hominem.

My counterpoint:
And just like Ray…you would presume to KNOW ME?! LOL…I remember to whom I'm speaking…a foot soldier in a paramilitary group pretending that it's a spiritual fraternity. One that preaches love and practices hate. One that hates rational behaviour…compares it to stroking male genitalia for the purposes of sexual gratification.

Are you also one of the prank callers? Or is it just John who can't get over the fact that his mistress would want to fuck someone else besides him? She'd even take a short funny looking guy like me…(uproarious laughter)…and years later…he still can't get over it…sounds like another good Student of HOOR…the irrational Lodge.

>> You:
>> The same is true for Marc, Josh, Dominick and others.

>> Me:
>> They are Cattle amongst the herd…thus spoke Zarathustra! LOL

Your response:
Let me ask you, how large is your herd at the moment? How many students/followers do you have?

My counterpoint:
No followers at all…just Students; learning to discover their own higher natures as they travel the paths of their own initiations. And when those who would worship me as some Spiritual Adorant…well…they're met by me with a strong rebuke and go back to the fight…one where they could eventually get to know themselves as per Hermes Trismagistus' Emeral Tablet: "KNOW THYSELF".

>> You:
>> With such apparently ego minded people, one is compelled to
>> follow them for a time. This happens until one reaches the
>> point of rising up and claiming their own right and place,
>> if in fact it ever happens.

>> Me:
>> Both me & Ray with egos?! I thought Ray had destroyed his
>> ego…so did Lynn

Your response:
I said apparently.

My counterpoint:
Nice try at subterfuge…told you…not biting today.

Me:
>> Cerrito when she made her bold announcement of the same accomplishment.
>> That should leave only me with any sense of self-identity (ego)…ROFL!

Your response:
Blah.. Do what thou wilt. Announce whatever you want who gives a fuck really.

Again we something common to the weak-minded debater who has lost his point…just claim sour grapes and walk out of the argument. It is important when seeking truth to concede those points that you have lost. In this way, you find truth. And the confident debater tries to use the lost points to bolster the overall argument.

My counterpoint:
LOL…cat got your tongue? Make sure that when you lose a point in a debate that you resort to "who gives a fuck really". This way you can continue to engratiate your lower ego…the one that kills commies for Uncle Ray. YOU CARE!–Or you wouldn't have taken all the time to respond to my teaser. You're biting today!

>> You:
>> If they fail, then they will fall to the point of complacency and the
>> continuance of such hero-worship, to the betterment of the Order and the
>> M.T. (ie. the slaves shall serve…)

>> Me:
>> Yes, more dues paying idle-minded masses to gather into the
>> fold…go Jesus!
>> And you just keep converting them to this imbecilic state with such
>> teachings as In the Continuum.

My counterpoint:
Interesting again…no response here.

>> You:
>> Crowley was a classic example of someone using this technique
>> to either 'shock' the Aspirant into thinking for him/herself
>> if they were capable of such feats (so uncommon in humans…the
>> few and the
>> secret…), or if not, to continue to feed the slave-like
>> tendencies of the
>> individual thereby forever entrapping them.

>> Me:
>> Now that's laughably un-supported…show documentation. This is
>> some sort
>> of fairy tale you're weaving here. I understand your attempt at a
>> 'Trickster' motif…but you're on rationally shaky ground in
>> this case. But
>> of course…In the Continuum teaches us that to be rational is
>> to fail the
>> ordeal of your advancement…so you don't need to be rational…silly me.

Your response:
Obviously you haven't read Magick without Tears lately. Nor have you read the Table of Contents of MTP (didnt we all have a good laugh when we realized that trap?)

References to texts are given without producing any facts from those texts. It's obscurant and condescending at best. And from there, there's a made-up memory that the other side is supposed to recall. But no time and place are even given for this. This is all terribly inarticulate and timidly opportunistic. Again, poor tactics in a debater that has lost cognizance of the issue being debated.

My counterpoint:
Oh…is the consoler letting you read at this point in your initiation…how generous of him! You must be grateful. Ok…I'll bite here…show me where Crowley developed Students in such a way as to foster slave-like qualities in Magick Without Tears. And where is this also evident in the Table of Content of MTP? Don't worry…I won't be holding my breath for that answer.

>> You:
>> The 'double-speak' you point out so often in Ray's essay attempts
>> to show this, but you do not see it.

>> Me:
>> Now that's your silliest rationalization.

My counterpoint:
And again! No response!

Again, claiming my point as in other places that I haven't commented in bold. One important point in debate and communication is to as I said earlier, acknowledge when you lose a point. This is healthy and promotes the real goal of a debate…truth!

>> You:
>> Perhaps this is because you have already gone through this process.
>> You have already become the 'Mentor'.. the 'Instructor'…
>> Whether you like it or not, you have. Those who are around you
>> or near you
>> often latch onto your teacher-like personality. I did myself for a long
>> time.

>> Me:
>> If it was true that this was even recognized, the Master would be
>> celebrating my 'graduation' and 'passing of the test'…rather
>> than running
>> around telling people in his flock that I'm insane and a failed Neophyte.
>> You unfortunately have deluded yourself nicely with these most irrational
>> rationalizations. But thanks for the kind words towards me.

My counterpoint:
And again! No response!

>> You:
>> It was this enslavement that forced me to look into myself. I
>> was no longer
>> complacent, but had a friend… an ally in my battle with
>> myself. That ally
>> didn't help me by giving me a pat on the back and saying 'good job Dave!'
>> No… Instead he fought me every step of the way…assuming
>> *HIS* ideas were
>> the correct ones. You sought to manipulate me and get me to
>> worship you and
>> your ideals so that I could better understand my 'Self' (as you
>> believed my
>> 'Self' to be.)

>> Me:
>> So now you reveal some of your paranoias…I never sought to enslave
>> you…that is only your perception…and obviously one that you
>> enjoyed…something you're still enjoying…with the CONSOLER.

Your counterpoint:
This is not my paranoia. It is the collective experience enjoyed by every one I know of that has dealt with you Paul. I think I'm the only one who never really had any beef with you other than the occasional annoying behaviour that drove members away from our Lodge. But even then I thought "hell fuck them they should be able to deal with Paul…" In many ways I still feel this way.

This is a very common flaw in an immature debater. Rely on "everyone else thinks so, therefore it must be the truth". There was a time when everyone thought the earth was flat. This represents not a call to facts to support one's argument…but an attempt at intimidation. It is one of the most puerile sophistries.

My response:
Let's put it this way…my review of the collective paranoia of HOOR is pretty solid. They hates them Yankees…the ones down South that is…you know…headquarters for the resistance. That wasn't a display of paranoia…with Joshua telling me how scared everyone was down there when they learned I was going to live there. It's not paranoia for Mom and Dad (y'all know…Ray and Karen…and don't forget the faithful mascot…egoless Lynn…who had me excommunicated for leaving pubic hairs in her bathtub…now thats thrusting a sword at me!…ROFL) to make sure that no one does any Magick together or has any association without their prior approval. After all they have to protect their Probationers from danger!…But that's not paranoia…paramilitary groups never use paranoia as a morale now…do they?

Your continued response:
That's why I still refer to you as Frater. I remember all we did together and all that we both learned from our shared experiences and I do not diminish or reduce that in any way.

My counterpoint:
Thanks for the kind memories…but you couldn't call me 'Frater' simply because like you I accept Liber AL vel Legis? But noooo…I'm not in the paramilitary group…nor the publishing syndicate (Caliphate) nor whatever…I know that you could only call one a brother who falls under the Yoke of the BIG DADDY! Then your and him would be in the same 'family'…perhaps you guys could move to Death Valley and raid some rich people's house.

Your continued response:
My choice to not leave H.O.O.R. and the A.'.A.'. under 939.'. was my decision to make.

And another problem of the poor thinker who thinks with feelings is in assuming too much when reading between the lines. This only serves to bring out one's personal emotional issue and can only detract from the issue at hand. It shows that the debater no matter how careful he thinks he is, is not really listening to his opponent at all as the emotional voices in his head are interpreting the facts instead of the intellect.

My counterpoint:
Was it? Or was it Ray that very cleverly made that decision for you? mmmm Enquiring minds (you know…rational ones with egos) want to know.

>> You:
>> Obviously I've disappointed you, but that's the way it goes I guess.

>> Me:
>> No…you didn't disappoint me…I stopped being the CONSOLER you
>> wanted…so

Your response:
I never came to you for consoling Paul. I came to you as an aid to what we were both trying to accomplish. And I did a damn good job of it for a long time.

Because the debater is taking everything so emotionally and personally at this point, he is failing to perceive the subtle inference of his opponent.

My counterpoint:
No…you came as a friend…and let an artificial and dysfunctional family get in-between that…you're brainwashed.

Me:
>> you took on another task master (from your point of view). Actually, you
>> realized that I wasn't consoling you at all…and you ran like hell to
>> Daddy.

Your response:
You are mistaken. I was never your follower or anyone elses for that matter.

My counterpoint:
A couple of quotes of yours from this dialogue:
"It is the nature of human personality." When talking about what happens in Magickal Orders…and…
"How many students/followers do you have?" … where you equate being a Student with being a follower. Do you still say that you were never a follower? Oh I get it…you're a leader that took AOM Lodge from the few members I left it with…to none. Good leading Dave!

>> You:
>> Did you notice that we're standing in a room full of mirrors?

>> Me:
>> But of course! That's all the fun of this…thanks for playing the
>> game…and so well!!!

Your response:
I'm not playing any game. Just giving you my opinion.

My counterpoint:
No…you wouldn't do that…you're not a follower…just because I set the lead and you bit the bait…doesn't make you a follower at all…but you don't 'give a fuck' do you? After all…that would be egoic…and might cause you to do something…RATIONAL!

93/93
Fraternally,
pj

Now we come to the final leg of this conversation. At this point, David is not only making things up…but is completely enraged by my persistently sardonic comments. These drive home strong points that wouldn't upset the even-tempered and objective debater. But with all his emotionalism, he couldn't contain himself. And finally, he exploded. I chose to let him have the last word and terminate the conversation…as it was just plain pointless to proceed any further.

CF;
93

>> >> Me:
>> >> I don't think so…you see…I refused to be enslaved and I
>> >> refuse to accept
>> >> some idea of being a failure BECAUSE I left the herd of cattle
>> >> known as HOOR
>> >> (a company of slaves).

>> Interesting that you have no response for this.

What am I supposed to say? That's your ill-guided opinion. You're fully entitled to your opinion, as am I (or have you forgotten that already.)

Again, my point was claimed in the previous leg…and here he's just throwing up his hands and giving up…but without conceding…it's quite apparent that he needs to win…not find truth.

>> >> You:
>> >> The trappings of the "Hierarchy" are intended to enslave
>> >> the Aspirant to the degree where one must 'sink or swim'.

>> >> Me:
>> >> And you would accept this slavery for the sake of your higher
>> >> Aspiration?!
>> >> That's all but laughable.

>> Your response:
>> Your interpretation of this concept of slavery and mine are
>> obviously different. In fact, I think they always have been.

>> My counterpoint:
>> Yes…I use the dictionary…and we wouldn't want anyone in HOOR
>> to be that
>> rational now would we…it would prove they have an ego…and that would
>> bring humiliation in front of all the other members of this cult. After
>> all…Ray's the only one allowed to have one of those.

You have no proof of this.

The childish ubsurdity of this statement defies belief! He's so lost in his emotional body that this almost reads like "I know you are but what am I?". This is one of the last ditch efforts of sophistry for the poor debater. Here, ask for explanations of the obvious…delay is the tactic in order to set up obfuscation and subterfuge.

>> You continued response:
>> Just because the teacher puts you through ordeals does not mean
>> that the teacher is seeking to destroy you. In reality, you are
>> putting yourself through the ordeals, the teacher is only
>> acting as a catalyst. You are missing this key point.

>> My continued counterpoint:
>> I'm not missing the key point…the teacher doesn't want to destroy
>> you…just humiliate and badger you till you get with the
>> program and start
>> selling flowers in airports…in other words…doing his will
>> and not their
>> own.

I've never been humiliated, badgered or asked by Ray to sell flowers at an airport. In fact, that seems to be more like something you'd come up with… One of your 'business ideas'. Heh..

And what about you? Were you trying to humiliate all of us by hitting on our girlfriends (who obviously weren't interested in you)?

Ad hominem and overt lie. Again, subterfuge and obfuscation…when all else fails and one needs to win a debate and all rational approaches prove them a loser of the contest…this becomes the last resort…lie and accuse.

Or how about when you were 'director movie man' during an initiation (a supposed sanctuary you defiled) just so you could rush off via FedEx the next morning the glorious video to Ray, your idol. Yes, he must approve of all the wonderful work your lodge did under your esteemed leadership. Surely this will get you further up the corporate ladder of H.O.O.R.

ibid

Did you realize how much of a distraction you were to the ceremony?

ibid

Did you realize how foolish you looked to all the members of the Lodge?

ibid

Did you forget all of this?

ibid

>> >> Me:
>> >> I don't believe that anyone who pushes forth policies of
>> enslavement for
>> >> whatever reason could make anything an Organ of the A.'.A.'. if one
>> >> considers the goals of the A.'.A.'. Life, Light, Love & LIBERTY
>> >> (opposite of
>> >> enslavement).

>> Your response:
>> You are missing my point entirely and claiming something I never said.

>> My counterpoint:
>> I quote you: "The trappings of the "Hierarchy" [with Ray as
>> grand puba] are
>> intended to enslave the Aspirant to the degree where one must 'sink or
>> swim'."

Yeah trappings… Trappings exist in all things. What are you brain dead Paul? Are you that naive to think there are no traps and pitfalls in the path of spiritual attainment?

David almost made a little bit of a point here…it would've been very weak anyway…but then the ad hominem…just ruined any chance he had.

>> Your continued response:
>> I never claimed H.O.O.R. or the A.'.A.'. pushed forth policies of
>> enslavement. I'm not a representative of either of those entities.

>> My repeated counterpoint:
>> You never claimed HOOR or the AA pushed forth policies of
>> enslavement?! I
>> again quote you: "The trappings of the "Hierarchy" are intended
>> to enslave
>> the Aspirant to the degree where one must 'sink or swim'."

Yes to the degree where a choice must be made. An irritant is brought into the situation to stimulate growth. It is a normal process, one that you seem to not understand.

>> No…you couldn't possibly be an 'official' representative of
>> HOOR…you're
>> only their Webmaster. Don't represent them…just keep speaking
>> for them as
>> a member…that's good enough for these glass walls.

I think people in H.O.O.R. respect my opinion, including Ray.

You wouldn't know because you don't get copies of my correspondence, now do you?

Referring to facts that the opponent is not allowed to verify or validate or even know about is just not a good way to prove one's point. Again it's almost like: "I know you are but what am I?".

>> Your continued response:
>> What I meant is that by default, if the Student should fail to get past
>> hero-worship of the teacher, they will fail miserably and become
>> enslaved.

>> My counterpoint:
>> How about…the master should immediately point out the absurdity of hero
>> worship and discourage it at every turn so that the Student may begin to
>> focus on him or herself? Nah…that wouldn't do at all…who'd

That's the most ridiculous thing to say. Obviously telling an infatuate student "don't love me because I'm beautiful" only encourages the activity more.
"Oh he's so wonderful AND modest too!"
Is that what your students think of you?

Here one can see that David and I completely disagree. And somehow, it seems his own point betrays his own sense of decency…so he resorts to mockery…puerile.

>> worship the
>> master then? Drop kick me Jesus…through the field goals of life.

>> >> You:
>> >> And why is this formed? What purpose does this serve?
>> >> Of course, it's purpose is to serve 939.'.'s will.

>> >> Me:
>> >> YES! Not yours nor anyone else's…just his…el
>> >> Presidente…the CONSOLER.

>> Your response:
>> Well? Isn't there a lot more to consider? Consider how you for so long
>> sought to have a 'Thelemic community'. Who's purpose did it
>> serve? Don't
>> tell me it was some noble Thelemic cause of yours to save the
>> world from the
>> evils of christism, because I won't believe it.

>> My counterpoint:
>> I am not out to save the world…that's just you living in this paradigm
>> that requires a consoler (Christist conditioning at work here).

Again, I worked with you for a long time. You were out to save the world. You were out to convert. You were out to get members at all costs, regardless of whether or not the person was actually interested. Often people thought you were insane because you just didn't get the point no matter how many times it was laid out clear for you that the person just *wasn't interested* in what you were trying to sell.

Ask anyone who worked with us. Anyone. I dare you.

Again David resorts to "well everyone else thinks so" and employs false facts…he's literally spewing green slime at this point…whatever he can impulsively get out of his mouth he will say…as an obviously desperate stab at making his argument. And he becomes more self-defeating yet.

>> BTW: I'm
>> using Motta's definition of a 'Consoler'…one who says that
>> "Only through
>> me can you get to the Father"…wouldn't want you running to a dictionary
>> now…that would just ruin your initiation now…wouldn't it? I remember
Stupid come back Paul. Ray has never

The weak debater will also attempt insult in order to bring his opponent down to his level and even the playing field. Again, he's not out for truth…but to win.

>> when the Catholic Church used to warn me that I was getting too well
>> educated and was in danger of losing my faith…ROFL.
>> I still would like to be a part of a Thelemic community…one
>> that promotes
>> Life, Love, Liberty & Light. What healthy Thelemite wouldn't
>> prefer that to
>> a Christist community?

>> But you do reveal yourself well here…you couldn't for a moment
>> think that
>> I might be philanthropic enough to want to share any bounty
>> obtained from my
>> hard work with other people…if but for the love of those in my
>> life. This
>> is telling of your own social alienation.

No, it's just my opinion on your actions I've witnessed.

>> >> You:
>> >> I have found in dealing with Ray that if you have an attitude
>> >> that is 'cult-worship-like' with him, he will most certainly
>> >> encourage you to worship him and what he believes/mandates/whatever.
>> >> You said it once yourself… "He'll give you enough rope
>> >> to hang yourself."

>> >> Me:
>> >> But of course! And he has a lot of them gathered around him to
>> >> support and
>> >> exalt him. Instead of teaching them to find their own
>> freedom, he allows
>> >> them to continue in their unabashed folly…for his own
>> >> ends…self-serving

>> Your response:
>> That's your opinion. My opinion is that while there have been those who
>> have fallen into this trap, there are several who haven't.

>> My counterpoint:
>> I know at least one that he calls a liar, insane and a failure. Could he
>> yet be teaching me…trying to get me to fall into another trap?
>> How much
>> does he love me anyway?…'Enquiring minds want to know'.

Did I say that he loves you? Come on Paul, stick to the facts.

It becomes easy for your opponent to run right over you will puns and innuendos when you're lost in an emotional rather than objective approach to the debate. David tries to rail me for not using facts (again to bring me down to his level and even the playing field as he's not been able to produce any facts to support his points) and also attempts another diversionary tactic.

>> Your continued response:
>> And I submit to you that this trap will happen in every social
>> organization
>> you, or Ray, or anyone else conjures up. It is the nature of human
>> personality.

>> My counterpoint:
>> Now you're an expert on human nature and the nature of everyone's
>> personality traits. And its all so neat for you in this sardonic
>> generalization. Well…I'll leave you to your folly on that one.

Again, my opinion based on what I've seen and had to deal with in H.O.O.R. and after seeing your experience with the O.T.O.

>> me:
>> >> and aggrandizing of course…just like a good cult leader. It doesn't
>> >> matter that you quote me out of context to support your point.
>> >> You didn't
>> >> need that abuse of my words to help you. You have already been
>> >> quite clear.

>> Your response:
>> I didn't abuse your words.
>> Obviously I haven't been clear because you do not understand
>> what I meant.

>> My counterpoint:
>> You spoke as clearly as you think…not so well at all…you must be an
>> Adept in this lineage…one that hates rationality.

No it is because you are filtering it through your madness and anger.

I realize you are a bomb ready to explode… just do it someplace else please you did enough damage to our Lodge and our friendship.

>> >> You:
>> >> You do the same thing Paul. I've worked with you for a
>> >> number of years. I've seen your dictator like ways and
>> >> manipulative personality. It has served me well in hardening
>> >> my shell and making me stronger for combat with my own Self and
>> >> others.

>> >> Me:
>> >> Nice try at a rationalization. You would even try to put me on the
>> >> defensive here…not biting today…try again tomorrow.

>> My counterpoint:
>> Interesting that there's no response to this.

What am I supposed to respond to? You didn't give me a straight answer.

>> >> You:
>> >> If anything, the warrior requires some type of battle experience
>> >> to be better equipped for the war.

>> >> Me:
>> >> The enemy is within oneself…the Master need not add to this
>> >> with further
>> >> attacks from outside.

>> Your response:
>> Bullshit. Plain and simple. You are warned from the onset that
>> you will be
>> tested by your Instructor. That the A.'.A.'. will test you in many ways,
>> many of which you won't know of beforehand.

>> My counterpoint:
>> Then the master would bring out those energies within the
>> Aspirant that the
>> Aspirant is struggling with. This would sharpen his or her
>> Sword and hone
>> his or her skills.

Yeah well it looks like Ray brought out those energies in you, eh?

>> He need not make up pranks and pretenses
>> that have the
>> amazing coincidence of also aggrandizing the alleged master who has now
>> neatly positioned himself to profit off of the ignorance of the Student.
>> "Keep 'em stupid…barefoot…and pregnant."…eh?

Again, I have yet to see Ray in this position. I don't buy it.

>> Your continued response:
>> If I'm going to train you to be my knight in my army, I'm not
>> going to put
>> you on a bed of pillows and stroke your dick until you're happy and
>> satisfied.

>> I'm going to run at you with a sword like the enemy does and try to teach
>> you how to react to it.

>> My counterpoint:
>> Oh…I get it now! HOOR isn't a spiritual order…it's a paramilitary
>> group. Going to fight the commies? Let's kill one for Uncle Ray!
>> Everybody's making money for el Presidente!

That was an allegory Paul. You do know what an allegory is right? Perhaps someone else isn't thinking to clearly, eh?

>> me:
>> >>That is only a distraction to take time and energy
>> >> away from working on oneself.

>> Your response:
>> Sounds like psychic masturbation to me.

>> My counterpoint:
>> It would…why work on yourself…when you can have a Student to drive a
>> sword through. Very telling…mmmmm!

You're not making any sense here at all.

David's become so lost in his emotionalism that he can't see even the most obvious sardony…he's confused as he's been through several of the last uncommented responses of his.

>> >> You:
>> >> Many 'warriors in training' get killed in boot camp though…

>> >> Me:
>> >> Yes…in the boot camp of the Consoler who claims the right
>> to judge the
>> >> living and the dead…(Christist).

>> My counterpoint:
>> Interesting again…no response here.

What am I supposed to respond to? This is your opinion… with no basis in fact I might add.

>> >> You:
>> >> The truth is, you are both leaders of the masses. They will
>> >> follow you because your voices are heard well by your
>> >> educated minds and life-experiences.

>> >> Me:
>> >> Thanks for you kind words…but I don't seek any glory by way of 'the
>> >> masses'…nor am I their shepherd…(Christist).

>> Your response:
>> Ah thats a good one Paul and makes me laugh. You love the
>> attention Paul.
>> I know you do. You enjoy public attention more than anyone I've
>> ever met.
>> The joy in your face when giving a lecture is astounding.

>> My counterpoint:
>> I may love attention…or I may not…but that's a lot different from
>> seeking followers. Now, now David…can't we do better than this little
>> subterfuge? I told you…I'm not biting today…try again tomorrow.

Again you go around the facts. It's easier to say 'I'm not biting today' then to address what I'm presenting. *clap* *clap*

>> Your continued response:
>> Really, I should know Paul. Remember who you are speaking to.

>> My counterpoint:
>> And just like Ray…you would presume to KNOW ME?! LOL…I
>> remember to whom
>> I'm speaking…a foot soldier in a paramilitary group pretending
>> that it's a
>> spiritual fraternity. One that preaches love and practices
>> hate. One that

Yeah ok. But you worked with me for years. You must have been pretty stupid to believe in me all that time. Oh wait! You were a foot solder too!

>> hates rational behaviour…compares it to stroking male genitalia for the
>> purposes of sexual gratification.
>> Are you also one of the prank callers? Or is it just John who can't get
>> over the fact that his mistress would want to fuck someone else
>> besides him?

>> She'd even take a short funny looking guy like me…(uproarious
>> laughter)…and years later…he still can't get over it…sounds like
>> another good Student of HOOR…the irrational Lodge.

>> >> You:
>> >> The same is true for Marc, Josh, Dominick and others.

>> >> Me:
>> >> They are Cattle amongst the herd…thus spoke Zarathustra! LOL

>> Your response:
>> Let me ask you, how large is your herd at the moment? How many
>> students/followers do you have?

>> My counterpoint:
>> No followers at all…just Students; learning to discover their
>> own higher
>> natures as they travel the paths of their own initiations. And

Under the enlightened guidance of Paul Rovelli…

>> when those
>> who would worship me as some Spiritual Adorant…well…they're met by me
>> with a strong rebuke and go back to the fight…one where they could
>> eventually get to know themselves as per Hermes Trismagistus'
>> Emeral Tablet:
>> "KNOW THYSELF".

I've seen you in action. I don't need to comment further.

David has tried repeatedly his own attempts at goading me. And I've never given in to any emotionalism. But I can say that the only emotion that I have had is the bitterness of my experience with Ray's deceitfulness and the immaturity of his sycophants. This is exposed in my sardonic comments. And I don't apologize for it.

>> >> You:
>> >> With such apparently ego minded people, one is compelled to
>> >> follow them for a time. This happens until one reaches the
>> >> point of rising up and claiming their own right and place,
>> >> if in fact it ever happens.

>> >> Me:
>> >> Both me & Ray with egos?! I thought Ray had destroyed his
>> >> ego…so did Lynn

>> Your response:
>> I said apparently.

>> My counterpoint:
>> Nice try at subterfuge…told you…not biting today.

Now who's ignoring the facts? Who's going around the question?

>> Me:
>> >> Cerrito when she made her bold announcement of the same
>> accomplishment.
>> >> That should leave only me with any sense of self-identity
>> (ego)…ROFL!

>> Your response:
>> Blah.. Do what thou wilt. Announce whatever you want who gives a fuck
>> really.

>> My counterpoint:
>> LOL…cat got your tongue? Make sure that when you lose a point
>> in a debate
>> that you resort to "who gives a fuck really". This way you can
>> continue to

No I was saying who gives a fuck what attainment people have reached.
What good does that do the Aspirant?

>> engratiate your lower ego…the one that kills commies for Uncle Ray.
>> YOUR CARE!–Or you wouldn't have taken all the time to respond
>> to my teaser.
>> You're biting today!

No I'm responding because you took it upon yourself to give my email address to an unknown number of recipients (according to your mention of the BCC line.)

I told you in the beginning of this document that David would become upset by this. He had no problem reflecting these messages back to his people…but a big one when he discovered I was doing the same.

>> >> You:
>> >> If they fail, then they will fall to the point of complacency and the
>> >> continuance of such hero-worship, to the betterment of the
>> Order and the
>> >> M.T. (ie. the slaves shall serve…)

>> >> Me:
>> >> Yes, more dues paying idle-minded masses to gather into the
>> >> fold…go Jesus!
>> >> And you just keep converting them to this imbecilic state with such
>> >> teachings as In the Continuum.

>> My counterpoint:
>> Interesting again…no response here.

Again, what am I to say? This is just your opinion.

>> >> You:
>> >> Crowley was a classic example of someone using this technique
>> >> to either 'shock' the Aspirant into thinking for him/herself
>> >> if they were capable of such feats (so uncommon in humans…the
>> >> few and the
>> >> secret…), or if not, to continue to feed the slave-like
>> >> tendencies of the
>> >> individual thereby forever entrapping them.

>> >> Me:
>> >> Now that's laughably un-supported…show documentation. This is
>> >> some sort
>> >> of fairy tale you're weaving here. I understand your attempt at a
>> >> 'Trickster' motif…but you're on rationally shaky ground in
>> >> this case. But
>> >> of course…In the Continuum teaches us that to be rational is
>> >> to fail the
>> >> ordeal of your advancement…so you don't need to be
>> rational…silly me.

>> Your response:
>> Obviously you haven't read Magick without Tears lately. Nor
>> have you read
>> the Table of Contents of MTP (didnt we all have a good laugh when we
>> realized that trap?)

>> My counterpoint:
>> Oh…is the consoler letting you read at this point in your
>> initiation…how
>> generous of him! You must be grateful. Ok…I'll bite
>> here…show me where
>> Crowley developed Students in such a way as to foster slave-like
>> qualities
>> in Magick Without Tears. And where is this also evident in the Table of
>> Content of MTP? Don't worry…I won't be holding my breath for
>> that answer.

The table of contents is strewn with christist scare tactics to get the potential buyer of the book to look deeper within. Look at the chapter titles. Anyone with an ounce of curiosity, christist upbringing, and superstition would readily buy the book after reading chapter titles like the ones listed.

It's so obvious how can you not see that?

>> >> You:
>> >> The 'double-speak' you point out so often in Ray's essay attempts
>> >> to show this, but you do not see it.

>> >> Me:
>> >> Now that's your silliest rationalization.

>> My counterpoint:
>> And again! No response!

And again! What am I supposed to respond to? You obviously took what I said out of context. Re-read the paragraph above that one.

Here, David's imitating his opponent and trying to get onto the larger stage with his arguments. But it's overt mimicry…the result of all this emotionalism.

>> >> You:
>> >> It was this enslavement that forced me to look into myself. I
>> >> was no longer
>> >> complacent, but had a friend… an ally in my battle with
>> >> myself. That ally
>> >> didn't help me by giving me a pat on the back and saying
>> 'good job Dave!'
>> >> No… Instead he fought me every step of the way…assuming
>> >> *HIS* ideas were
>> >> the correct ones. You sought to manipulate me and get me to
>> >> worship you and
>> >> your ideals so that I could better understand my 'Self' (as you
>> >> believed my
>> >> 'Self' to be.)

>> >> Me:
>> >> So now you reveal some of your paranoias…I never sought to enslave
>> >> you…that is only your perception…and obviously one that you
>> >> enjoyed…something you're still enjoying…with the CONSOLER.

>> Your counterpoint:
>> This is not my paranoia. It is the collective experience
>> enjoyed by every
>> one I know of that has dealt with you Paul. I think I'm the only one who
>> never really had any beef with you other than the occasional annoying
>> behaviour that drove members away from our Lodge. But even then
>> I thought
>> "hell fuck them they should be able to deal with Paul…" In many ways I
>> still feel this way.

>> My response:
>> Let's put it this way…my review of the collective paranoia of HOOR is
>> pretty solid. They hates them Yankees…the ones down South
>> that is…you
>> know…headquarters for the resistance. That wasn't a display of
>> paranoia…with Joshua telling me how scared everyone was down there when
>> they learned I was going to live there. It's not paranoia for
>> Mom and Dad

I seriously doubt it had to do with your place of residence, and more to do with your bad habits and irritable personality.

Ad hominem (yawn)

>> (y'all know…Ray and Karen…and don't forget the faithful
>> mascot…egoless
>> Lynn…who had me excommunicated for leaving pubic hairs in her
>> bathtub…now thats thrusting a sword at me!…ROFL) to make sure that no

Yeah after you thrust yourself towards her at her doorstep expecting them to take you in, jobless and expecting a freebie. You were looking to be consoled weren't you? Think about it.

>> one does any Magick together or has any association without their prior
>> approval. After all they have to protect their Probationers from
>> danger!…But that's not paranoia…paramilitary groups never
>> use paranoia
>> as a morale now…do they?

What facts do you base this on? I've seen no evidence of this.

>> Your continued response:
>> That's why I still refer to you as Frater. I remember all we
>> did together
>> and all that we both learned from our shared experiences and I do not
>> diminish or reduce that in any way.

>> My counterpoint:
>> Thanks for the kind memories…but you couldn't call me 'Frater' simply
>> because like you I accept Liber AL vel Legis? But noooo…I'm not in the
>> paramilitary group…nor the publishing syndicate (Caliphate) nor
>> whatever…I know that you could only call one a brother who
>> falls under the
>> Yoke of the BIG DADDY!

Not true. I call you brother also because of your profession to accept Liber AL. But also for many other reasons I did not mention. It has nothing to do with this group or that group. It has to do with the small bit of respect I still have for you.

>>Then your and him would be in the same
>> 'family'…perhaps you guys could move to Death Valley and raid some rich
>> people's house.

Paul, you're beginning to sound like a jealous girlfriend.

>> Your continued response:
>> My choice to not leave H.O.O.R. and the A.'.A.'. under 939.'. was my
>> decision to make.

>> My counterpoint:
>> Was it? Or was it Ray that very cleverly made that decision for
>> you? mmmm
>> Enquiring minds (you know…rational ones with egos) want to know.

>> >> You:
>> >> Obviously I've disappointed you, but that's the way it goes I guess.

>> >> Me:
>> >> No…you didn't disappoint me…I stopped being the CONSOLER you
>> >> wanted…so

>> Your response:
>> I never came to you for consoling Paul. I came to you as an aid
>> to what we
>> were both trying to accomplish. And I did a damn good job of it
>> for a long
>> time.

>> My counterpoint:
>> No…you came as a friend…and let an artificial and
>> dysfunctional family
>> get in-between that…you're brainwashed.

Wrong. I came in as an associate. We became friends after the fact.

I met you at an O.T.O. meeting. Our friendship started as a mutual interest in Thelema. I did not know you before that day. Our friendship at that time *was* based on an artificial and dysfunctional family…namely PIAP Camp.

My choice not to follow you makes you angry, I can see that now.

Presumption and assumption are two self-defeating tools in a debate.

>> Me:
>> >> you took on another task master (from your point of view).
>> Actually, you
>> >> realized that I wasn't consoling you at all…and you ran like hell to
>> >> Daddy.

>> Your response:
>> You are mistaken. I was never your follower or anyone elses for that
>> matter.

>> My counterpoint:
>> A couple of quotes of yours from this dialogue:
>> "It is the nature of human personality." When talking about
>> what happens in
>> Magickal Orders…and…
>> "How many students/followers do you have?" … where you equate being a
>> Student with being a follower. Do you still say that you were never a

I was not equating the two. You misread that. They are two separate types of individuals.

>> follower? Oh I get it…you're a leader that took AOM Lodge from the few
>> members I left it with…to none. Good leading Dave!

In fact, I held things together by a virtual strand during that time and had an extremely hard time doing it because of the problems with you and the people around you (our members.)

You left it with virtually no members. In fact, I had to spend a considerable amount of time trying to clean up the mess you left behind.

Ad hominem and (yawn) outright lieing…obfuscation…(yawn).

>> >> You:
>> >> Did you notice that we're standing in a room full of mirrors?

>> >> Me:
>> >> But of course! That's all the fun of this…thanks for playing the
>> >> game…and so well!!!

>> Your response:
>> I'm not playing any game. Just giving you my opinion.

>> My counterpoint:
>> No…you wouldn't do that…you're not a follower…just because
>> I set the
>> lead and you bit the bait…doesn't make you a follower at all…but you
>> don't 'give a fuck' do you? After all…that would be egoic…and might
>> cause you to do something…RATIONAL!

You set no lead. You opened me up to spammers and unknowns by giving out my email address. Your netiquette sucks and your email was sent in bad taste.

And I told you in the beginning of this that it would make him angry to find out that I was doing the same thing he was doing. Self-absorption prevents any attempt at communication.

93 93/93

Fraternally,
1/3
DMS