A Talk by Marcelo Ramos Motta
Marcelo Motta of who one of his mottos was ‘Ever’, sat around one evening with a group of his students, discussing Magick in a casual environment. This was recorded by one whom eventually gave me a copy of the tope for transcription.
On Will, Resh, and Banishing
Well there is one thing I have to say that has nothing to do with the salt of the temple . . . something that is much more important than anything else . . . any of the practices that you could ever have. There are two most important practices a Thelemite can have and they are: saying will at meals and performing the adorations at the correct time. Both are simple, idiotic, something anyone can do at anytime but they are the most important practices of Thelemites.
Please keep in mind the altitude of the place is just as important as the longitude of the place where you are performing the adoration. If you read the Book of the Law very carefully, you may decide that that should be such. It’s very useful to know what you are and where you are. The time of adoration is different for someone who is at sea-level and is not the time of adoration for someone who is below; which is earlier or for someone above; which is later.
Q. Did you say that saying will and doing adorations are the most important basic practices?
A. If you want to perform eventually the invocation of the H.G.A., I think, for Thelemites, or for anybody who wants to use Liber VIII — which is one of the visions in the Vision and the Voice — those are the two most important practices. There are no more important practices than those.
Q. Not even the banishing ritual?
A. No. These are the two most important things. If you have to banish something is wrong. When the world is spinning fast enough, no dirt clings to it. If you have to banish, your world is not spinning fast enough.
Q. What do you mean ‘do a banishing ritual’ — not the everyday banishing?
A. Any kind of banishing ritual. There is no everyday banishing ritual. Where did you find an everyday banishing ritual?
Q. It’s the one where you say ‘Apo Pantos’.
A. Oh — That’s the third most important. But the other two come first. Because if you perform the other two correctly, this third one that you just mentioned comes naturally. And when you least expect it, sometimes you banish someone that surprises you that you’re banishing them. Why should you banish a very good friend? Quite a mystery! Or a wife, for example, or a brother, or a mother!? Why!?
Q. You said that you should banish anyone at all, right?
A. I’m saying that you should banish anytime you feel that you should banish. But its more important to say will at meals and perform the adorations than to banish. If you banish without knowing why you’re banishing, you must have been performing the adoration and saying will at meals for years.
On the Orientation of the Temple
Now lets go back to the orientation of the Temple…
There are two religions that insist on Jerusalem as the east. These two religions are the Roman Catholics and the Israelis. I’m not even talking about the Jews anymore. The Jews are a spiritual current and have gone beyond that. The light is no longer in the orient. It is now in Boleskine. It is not in Palestine, it is not in [Laffa], it is not in Shambalah — that existed five to ten thousand years ago. It doesn’t exist anymore. That’s where that term ‘superstition’ comes from; something that stays after it’s reason for staying has gone. That’s something that you believe in when there’s no reason to believe in it anymore.
An animal has appetites. A human being has ulterior motives. And that’s why human beings are so suspect by [predator] services everywhere — no matter where [ ].
Both to orthodox Jews which are not the initiated Jews (now that’s just my opinion and you have to find out for yourself whether you think its true or not) . . . not the true Jews (when I say true, I mean something that’s spiritual; something that lives on; something that contributes something to the cup which is something for the whole race no matter who happens to be carrying it at the time) — The cup is more important than the carrier and the Jews carried that for almost three thousand years and there is a terrible respect for that. They carried it faithfully. And that the greater culture handed it down to the Thelemite.
Eisenstein, Echstein and many others handed it on. Eisenstien handed it on to that faction of us that existed in Russia. And Echenstein handed it to Crowley. It’s ours now. It is no longer ion Jerusalem.
So Minah is a fake. Because what happened in [eleven] doesn’t care where something is. It can be anywhere. It’s in the [ ]. That’s why it is one of the numbers of existence. And existence is not manifested in flesh. But the duties of the race, the man, that the marvelous number should be [ ] like this. Right now the marvelous number is 93 and the temple is in Boleskine. And you will find many people trying to take you away from that idea. To that confess that it is in Rome and Jerusalem, Israel says its in Jerusalem. Israel wants Jerusalem. I don’t know what the political situation is in Jerusalem right now. It’s divided between three different countries, I think. But it doesn’t matter. For the orthodox it’s the Jews and nobody else’s. And they’ll get it no matter what. But are they moving towards the future? Or are they moving towards the past? You have to choose and you have to choose well.
On the Ipsissimus
Q. You explained to me once that 111 was a very advanced current — but exactly what level does it go up to?
A. It doesn’t go up to Kether . . . Kether to the number zero any time Kether’s essential number is always 111 in anyone.
That’s the first emanation from the real father . . . the first emanation of Kether is 111. How Kether defines itself at the time is up to you; the current being. [ ] the Ipsissimus is the [ ] everywhere. That’s why it is the Ipsissimus. I’m talking about you; your choice. Neschamah only reflects your choice and your choice is either the master of the temple or the [ ] or the [ ] dwellers. But it must be your individual choice. It must be your personal choice and your personal responsibility. Otherwise this whole thing would be nothing. The game would be a con game.
I am really not trying to make you what I want you to do. And the masters would stop me from making you do what I want you to do. He will do it or she will do it. Who ever the [ ] is will stop me from doing it.
Every curse is a blessing in disguise. And you are relaxing because you relax. So you must choose the path [ ] time. Anyone who is born to real initiation is restricted; is limited. The rest is trash. Anyone misspeaks of omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence; unless they speak having [woes] and [ ] in question. At that point the Ipsissimuss is never known.
And if I am an Ipsissimus, you will never know it because none of you are my weapons. And if I am a Magus; which I may be insane in even implying, I state there for the record that I call the Magus of the Aeon. I may be wrong, I may be right. And whether I am wrong now or I will be right in the future. That’s for each and everyone of you to decide. Your will is sovereign. That’s why your responsibility is absolute. Because your will
Remember the woman. You will never defeat the woman unless you become one.
Q. You were writing in your commentaries that anything you said could be checked. And if it couldn’t be checked; you were a charlatan.
A. The problem with the process by which it’s easiest to check on [this or that] is that it can be very easily attacked. You check on a statement like that by reaching trances. Some of which are beautifully described in Little Essays Towards Truth. Which should be required reading for OTO members and will be part of the breviary of the Holy Gnostic Catholic Church. The problem is, if you reach these ecstasies, someone may always say that you were a victim of conditioned suggestion . . . conditioning or you were a victim of telepathic hypnosis. Or you were a victim of careful subliminal hypnosis. That’s what a magickal attack is. A magickal attack is either telepathic hypnosis, subliminal suggestion.
Q. Or the part of the third party.
A. I believe that could be put under the classification of theology. What third party? Is anybody in the world besides you? Do you understand why the Tao heaven always is in conflict or disagrees with everything else? It’s word is no pleasant.
You can test by trance. But tests can be easily attacked on an intellectual plane.
Q. So when you’re saying ‘checked’, you don’t necessarily mean checked by scholars. Some segments can be checked by scholars but segments such as those that occur on the astral.
A. Statements as far as we are concerned, have to be checked by you if you are interested in their verity. I have never trusted a scholar in my life. I didn’t trust my instructor. I went and checked. Of course, after I hav checked, I decided I was a stupid ass for not having done what he had told me to do in the first place. But at least I was a wise, stupid ass.
Crowley once told someone who told to him that he had learned to be patient — he told the person, you are very great. Crowley was not patient. Mr. Germer was patient. He was so patient that he never boasted about his patience.
The intellect is very limited. And it has to be. Higher mathematics is the best part of the intellect. It transcends itself through higher mathematics.
So through trance you can test it. There is no other way. But your emotions will be against you. And your intellect will be against you. And the demons will be against you. Why? Because they don’t give a fuck. And what’s worse, some of them have been instructed to make it very hard. They have [ ] demons belong to the hierarchy. They are obedient to 666. They are always obedient to the man in any [ ].
Q. Why did Abramelin demons cause AC so much trouble?
A. Thou shalt be vexed by dispersion. It’s in the curse of the ethos.
Q. You mean he wasn’t vexed by dispersion after he became Magister Templi?
A. You may not be personally vexed by dispersion. But your pupils will be. For if you could save your pupils for the ordeals that they have to go through, then you could sacrifice someone else in your place. And that’s the beauty of the order. That you can not sacrifice anyone else in your place in the order. There is a guardian of the abyss. And she guards very well.
You see, she just came up and gave you something. I think its called time. And what’s more, I know that she went away to thing — anything. And if that doesn’t make miracles higher than the crucifixion and resurrection, I don’t know what it is.
On the Magickal Childe
Q. What about the Demons? Are they also . . .
A. They are not that [ ] beings. How do you know?
Q. I am reasonably certain?
A. Good reason is one that makes no difference whatsoever. Which is a totally unreasonable task. Actually, you are not qualified to know if they are or they aren’t. You will have to prove your hunch by your deeds. Can you have children? Most woman can. Magickians can have children too on several planes. And the baby of the abyss is always a child of the magus in gender or one whose name [that we must not need case hit].
On the Genii of Liber 231 and the Abra-Melin Demons
So lets put it this way. The Genii on Liber 231 are not Abramelin demons. But they could be. And they can act as such at anytime that it is necessary. And the Abra-melin demons will co-operate with tem any time its necessary because they obey the higher. But in order to gain their obedience you have to prove that you deserve it. That’s also written in Konx Om Pax. Actually, its written under the form of a parabola that’s called ‘The Devil’s Conversion’.
[Q. In I-Ching and references to magickal attack . . .
On Magickal Attack and the Demons
Q. Regarding magickal attack and a third party. In the appendix to the astral plane in MTIP or Liber O it is stated that the objectivity that’s subject to these things are immaterial.
A. It’s in both and that’s very important for Neophytes.
Q. And it says for the purpose of convenience to treat them as ‘objectives’.
A. That’s a scientific attitude. Read [ ] who was a fine scientist and mathematician. He just said things that are useful.
Somebody eventually will have to establish concrete data to Crowley’s works and it will be much more fruitful than any concrete data to the bible that has ever been done. Which doesn’t denigrate the bible.
Q. Assuming for the convenience sake, the objectivity or out sidedness of third party attacks; not attacks of one’s own inertia. . .
A. Yes, you want to love and be loved . . . A third party is always a rival between the love and the beloved. But to realize that . . .
Q. According to the part in Alice Sloper, it’s only a dirty image of yourself.
A. Other beings, as [ ] said, you always see in all things, just as much as you are developed to see. That’s why [ ] in all things. That is in the Vision and the Voice.
Q. You wrote in a lot in [a toca de pesa] about magickal attack.
A. I haven’t learned many lessons from my Holy Master, so I cannot say that I wait but that I am trying to wait.
Q. I’m trying to get you to speak on magickal attack — what is it in it’s many different forms?
A. If reflects on all possible planes and sub-planes. On different times, moments and slots of co-ordinates. You have to study mathematics. As a matter of fact, if you have any difficulty studying mathematics, at least study analytic geometry.
I could never answer that. It would take me my whole lifetime and several more lifetimes.
Q. What did you say in [a toca de pesa] about it?
A. I didn’t say very much more than you can find in psychic self-defense by Dion Fortune; if you discount the obvious Christism in her idiotic stubbornness in trying to resist the Book of the Law and Crowley.
Q. You said that the demons were going their own way minding their own business . . .
A. Which demons? Demons in general or Abra-melin demons?
Q. In general.
A. Then, you should read ‘The Marriage of Heaven and Hell’ by William Blake.
Q. You had something to say about the person under attack and the demons just going their way and you got interrupted. Can you continue?
A. If you fall into the sea and you get eaten by a shark, does the shark personally resent you?
A. Well that’s the demons attitude. The demon will not cautiously and deliberately attack a human being unless its been provoked by another human being. A demon normally will do what any living being does, it will do its own will. And it’s not the will of any demon to attack human beings. Their will is to exist. If as a consequence of existing they may sometimes attack human beings, that’s incidental, co-incidental or fortuitous. And it’s either provoked by some human being who has some mean intentions towards you or its totally and absolutely [ ].
Q. Is there one other category, that if you were an aspirant . . .
A. From the point of view of the attacked; what difference does it make if it’s your Holy Guru sending the demons out to you or someone else who wants to fuck you up by sending the demons out to you. What difference does it make?! Unless of course, you reach the level at which you can tell the difference. But is there any difference since I told you to read [ ]? That’s the curse of the black brothers. They serve whether they will or no. You do not have to serve. But the black brothers serve whether they will or no. Read this any way you can.
Q. You said to read ‘The Marriage of Heaven and Hell’. I didn’t understand the context.
A. The whole concept of demons was ver4y fixed and very theological before that Holy Genius William Blake wrote this book. Now if you read it you’ll find out a concept of the demons; the perception of the demons; an intuition of the demons; an inspiration from contact with both kinds of forces which is completely different from anything that was ever done before. The demons were evil, black, hostile. They wanted to dominate you. And the Angels were good. And they wanted to save you. And nothing was ever written before ‘The Marriage of Heaven and Hell’ in 1600 years of hell by William Blake.
Q. Did he speak about the usefulness of the demons?
A. Read it! I don’t understand how this all isn’t as clear to you as it is to me. There is a problem about going form one initiation to another. You may die. We always die a little. So the memories of the troubles you had before may die. So the understanding of the matter or the understanding of the master; which probably comes to the same thing, may not be very satisfactory to the aspirant. Because we have died, we do not remember how the aspirant may feel. It’s a matter of priorities. Some cells of our brains are liquidated because the interference is too great. And we have to make allowances. So we kill some parts of ourselves. And those parts may be memories.
And that’s why it’s hard for you to understand. We have been where you were. But there are priorities. And that’s why you have to pass your way all through! You have to make your own decisions. And assume the responsibility of your own beliefs. We have been there before. We may even have gone out the wrong way and that is possible. And that’s why the HGCC is better than the Roman Catholic church. We all make mistakes. That’s part of the scientific method. You have to experiment and try and try again. And that’s Rosicrucianism; to try like the Rosicrucians.
St. Paul, the mythical predecessor of mine has said: ‘Taste all things. Hold fast to what is good — whether you are man or woman.’
[ ] wrote a fable — its not in the devil’s dictionary. And man was sitting down in the middle of other men and he was listening to the most miraculous story. And everyone was going OOH! and AH! and NO! and YOU DON’T SAY SO! And this guy was not saying anything. And finally one of the idiots who was sitting beside him said ‘aren’t you also completely surprised by the holy words of this miraculous man who has just spoken?’ And the guy answered ‘No, you see, I’m a liar myself.’
And this is my last pearl of wisdom this evening.